(WASHINGTON) — New details and never-before-seen photographs have emerged about the “heated” phone call between President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence on the morning of Jan. 6, 2021.
The information came out in the House select committee’s third public hearing this month in its investigation of the attack on the U.S. Capitol.
The panel on Thursday focused on the intense pressure placed on Pence by Trump and others to single-handedly overturn Joe Biden’s electoral victory in the 2020 presidential race.
Pence refused Trump’s last-ditch demands, which witnesses said sparked a mocking response from Trump.
The committee shared new photographs of Trump on that very phone call, which it obtained from the National Archives. Another exhibit showed a handwritten note on Trump’s schedule that the call was slated to take place at 11:20 a.m., just hours before a mob of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol as Pence was presiding over Congress certifying Biden’s win.
“The conversation got pretty heated,” Ivanka Trump, the ex-president’s daughter who was in the room, told the committee in a videotaped deposition.
She recalled the phone call representing a “different tone” from what she’d previously heard her father use with Pence.
Other aides who were also inside the Oval Office echoed Ivanka Trump’s alarm.
Eric Herschmann, then was serving as the White House counsel, told lawmakers that the conversation started off with a “calmer tone” but “then it became heated.” Herschmann said he didn’t think many people were paying attention to the call until it became “louder.”
Nicholas Luna, Trump’s former assistant, told the committee he was delivering a note to the Oval Office when he overheard some of Trump’s side of the conversation.
“I remember hearing the word ‘wimp,'” Luna said in a taped deposition. “Either he called him a wimp, I don’t remember if he said, ‘You are a wimp, you’ll be a wimp.’ Wimp is the word I remember.”
Julie Radford, Ivanka Trump’s former chief of staff, said in her deposition she remembered being told by Ivanka Trump “her dad had just had an upsetting conversation with the vice president.”
Radford said she was told the former president had called Pence “the p-word.”
Retired Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg, Pence’s national security adviser at the time, said in a taped deposition that he remembers Trump telling Pence he wasn’t “tough enough.”
Greg Jacob, who served as Pence’s legal counsel between December 2020 and January 2021, testified live on Thursday about what he experienced on the other side of the call.
Jacob said he and several other people were with Pence finalizing his statement on why he couldn’t unilaterally reject state electors when Pence stepped out of the room to receive the call from Trump.
“No staff went with him,” Jacob told the committee.
After the call, Jacob testified, Pence appeared to be “steely, determined, grim.”
The House select committee on Thursday commended the former vice president for his “courage” in rejecting Trump’s demands.
“Donald Trump wanted Mike Pence to do something no other vice president has ever done,” Chairman Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., said in his opening remarks.
“The former president wanted Pence to reject the votes and either declare Trump the winner, or send the votes back to the states to be counted again,” Thompson continued. “Mike Pence said no. He resisted the pressure. He knew it was illegal. He knew it was wrong.”
Rep. Pete Aguilar, a Democrat who led the hearing Thursday, said it was a “pressure campaign that built to a fever pitch with a heated phone call on Jan. 6.”
Jan. 6 Committee member Rep. Aguilar says Americans will hear “how Vice Pres. Pence withstood an onslaught of pressure from Pres. Trump, both publicly and privately.”
The committee also revealed new photographs of Pence and his family hiding in an underground location of the Capitol complex as Trump supporters stormed the building.
In one photo, Pence is seen looking at a tweet Trump had just sent asking rioters to leave the area.
Pence remained in the underground location for four hours as law enforcement officials eventually pushed back the mob.
Jacob, Pence’s former adviser, told the committee that Pence decided to stay in the area so as to “not to take any chance that the world would see the vice president of the United States fleeing the United States Capitol.”
Jacob also testified that Trump didn’t check in on Pence at all during that time, which left Pence frustrated.
ABC News on Wednesday published exclusively-obtained White House photos of the Pence family after he was evacuated from the Senate floor, where the joint session of Congress was taking place.
(WASHINGTON) — Justice Sonia Sotomayor, in a rare public appearance during the frenzied crush of Supreme Court opinion season, delivered public praise of her colleague Justice Clarence Thomas and gave a pep talk to progressives Thursday as the embattled institution prepares to issue major rulings driven by the court’s conservative majority.
“If it doesn’t kill me, it makes me stronger. That is what adversity does to you,” an upbeat Sotomayor, one of the court’s three liberal justices, told an audience at the American Constitution Society conference in Washington.
In the coming days, the court will issue opinions on abortion, gun rights, immigration, school prayer and climate policy. The justice did not directly address any of the pending cases, or an unprecedented leaked draft opinion by Justice Samuel Alito last month that showed the conservative majority ready to overturn Roe v. Wade.
Sotomayor did, however, discuss how infamous and unjust court decisions can later be corrected, citing the Dred Scott case of 1857, which held that enslaved or free black Americans could not be citizens. She noted that it took eight years and a Civil War to rectify, but that ultimately it was overturned.
“We have to have continuing faith in the court system, in our system of government, in our ability — I hope not through war — but through constitutional amendment, to change in legislation, towards lobbying, towards continuing the battle each day to regain the public’s confidence that we as a court, as an institution have not lost our way,” Sotomayor said.
“We as a society, have taken steps some may disagree with. But if we disagree, we will continue to battle to do justice,” she said.
Alito, in his draft opinion in the abortion case, cited the Scott case to justify overturning Roe, arguing that the 1973 landmark opinion was similarly, in his view, wrongly decided from the start.
Sotomayor’s appearance was the first by a member of the court’s liberal wing since the leaked opinion breached a cherished code of trust, upended court operations and stirred new security threats to the justices, including an alleged assassination attempt on Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
Her remarks also followed public comments by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Clarence Thomas last month, each of whom suggested relations among justices and with their clerks have significantly deteriorated amid recent events.
“When you lose that trust, especially in the institution that I’m in, it changes the institution fundamentally,” Thomas said at a conference in May. “You begin to look over your shoulder. It’s like kind of an infidelity that you can explain it, but you can’t undo it.”
Sotomayor heaped praise on Justice Thomas — who has been sharply criticized by Democrats and progressive legal scholars for his positions in controversial cases and for the alleged involvement of his wife, Ginni Thomas, in efforts to overturn the 2020 election.
Thomas was one of the only justices to dissent from the court’s decision to decline to take up several election-related cases.
“I suspect I have probably disagreed with him more than with any other justice, that we have not joined each other’s opinions more than anybody else,” Sotomayor said, and yet “he is a man who cares deeply about the court as an institution, about the people who work there…”
Thomas has a “very different philosophy of life,” Sotomayor continued, “but I think we share a common understanding about people and kindness towards them. That’s why I can be friends with him and still continue our daily battle over our difference of opinions in cases.”
While many Democrats and progressive activists have been downtrodden about the direction of the Supreme Court with a 6-3 conservative majority — some are demanding dramatic changes to the size and scope of the court — Sotomayor urged optimism and civility in the face of disappointment.
“You can lie down and let the truck run you over. Or, you can…get up and build the barricades,” she told the crowd. “I don’t mean this literally, I mean it figuratively….Look, there are days I get discouraged. There are moments where I am deeply, deeply disappointed. And yes, there have been moments where I’ve stopped and said, ‘Is this worth it anymore?’ And every time I do that, I lick my wounds for a while. Sometimes I cry. And then I say, OK — let’s fight.”
(WASHINGTON) — Members of the House select committee appeared divided this week on whether they should make a criminal referral against former President Donald Trump at the conclusion of their investigation, with Chairman Bennie Thompson telling reporters it’s “not our job” to prosecute Trump before Vice Chair Liz Cheney said the decision to refer findings hasn’t been made.
The back-and-forth has reignited questions on the merits of sending a criminal referral to Attorney General Merrick Garland and the Justice Department. A referral is not required for the agency to investigate Trump, nor will one guarantee it, but public hearings outlining Trump’s “seven-point plan” to overturn the 2020 presidential election have amped up pressure on Garland to bring criminal charges against Donald Trump — the first in history against a former president.
While a criminal referral from the Jan. 6 committee might, on paper, end up being a mostly symbolic gesture, experts told ABC News the move deserves careful consideration.
“I don’t think that there is any member of that committee who has any doubt about whether Donald Trump violated the law or questions the actual merits of a criminal referral,” said Claire Finkelstein, director of the Center for Ethics and Rule of Law at the University of Pennsylvania Law School. “What I suspect is that it has much more to do with trying to preserve Congress’ authority and not wanting division between those who are trying to hold Donald Trump accountable in Congress and the Justice Department.”
“But,” she added, “the calculation that says, ‘We will hold back, and therefore preserve our own authority,’ is mistaken.”
Pros and cons
Amid concerns that Republicans will paint a criminal referral, and any subsequent DOJ investigation, as politically-motivated, the committee may decide to leave its findings in a public report, which would then serve as an indirect “handoff” to the Justice Department, said Ryan Goodman, a professor at New York University School of Law, who outlined some reasons that might give the committee pause.
“The downside with a referral could be that if Garland’s Justice Department does move ahead, that it would be perceived as potentially political by some parts of the American public,” he said. “It could be better for the Justice Department to appear more independent than seeming as though it’s responding to a direct referral coming out of the committee.”
On the other hand, Goodman said, while a referral doesn’t have any compulsory force tied to it, “I think Garland has shown us time and again that he is reactive, not proactive — and what he reacts to are other institutions, forcing the question.”
Garland told reporters that he and his prosecutors are closely watching the committee’s hearings this week, and the Department of Justice sent a new letter on Wednesday telling the committee’s chief investigator it is “critical” members “provide us with copies of the transcripts of all its witness interviews,” which the committee so far has declined to do. The request suggests there are matters DOJ is investigating beyond the violence on the ground on Jan. 6 it is already prosecuting — specifically alternate or fake electors as part of the discredited theory that Pence could unilaterally block the certification of Joe Biden as president.
Regardless of whether the committee makes a formal criminal referral, each legal expert ABC News spoke with said it would be concerning if the government did not, at the very least, open a criminal investigation.
“As a matter of constitutional theory and law and accountability and the separation of powers, if Merrick Garland doesn’t at least try, even if the Justice Department loses, there’s no disincentive left for any future president to not use the massive powers of the White House to commit widespread crimes,” said Kimberly Wehle, a professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law and a former assistant U.S. attorney. “It’s a green light for a crime spree in the White House because every other lever of accountability has failed.”
Then sentiment is clearly shared by Cheney, who has taken the tone of a criminal prosecutor in the hearings, arguing that Trump and his allies engaged in criminal activity, using video testimony of Trump White House attorney Eric Herschmann recalling how he suggested that Trump White House attorney John Eastman “get a great effing criminal defense lawyer.”
Using the clip to tease Thursday’s hearing, Cheney pointedly noted how a federal judge already found Trump’s pressure on then-Vice President Mike Pence to obstruct the congressional count of electoral votes “more likely than not” violated two federal criminal statutes: obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the United States.
“President Trump had no factual basis for what he was doing and he had been told it was illegal. Despite this, President Trump plotted with a lawyer named John Eastman and others to overturn the outcome of the election on Jan. 6,” Cheney said.
Trump, in a 12-page statement sent to reporters on Monday night, blasted the panel illegitimate and their presentation one-sided, calling it “a smoke and mirrors show.”
While the committee weighs sending a formal criminal referral, here’s a look at federal statutes the committee and experts say Trump and his allies may have violated:
Obstruction of an official proceeding – 18 U.S.C. § 1512
The committee has outlined an alleged “sophisticated seven-point plan” it says Trump and his allies engaged in with the goal of stopping the peaceful transfer of power, including “corruptly” planning to replace federal and state officials with those who would support his fake election claims and pressuring Vice President Mike Pence to violate his oath to the Constitution.
Acting on a plan with the intent to stop the counting of electoral votes would likely violate 18 U.S.C. § 1512, which makes it a felony to attempt to “corruptly obstruct, influence, or impede any official proceeding,” such as a presidential election, and comes with up to 20 years in prison.
“If there is enough evidence to prove that Trump knew he had lost the election, then it’s obvious that he was acting with corrupt intent,” Goodman said. “You can’t try to pressure the vice president to overturn the election if you know you actually lost.”
Cheney, raising texts sent to White House chief of staff Mark Meadows urging Trump to call for violence to stop on Jan. 6, mirrored language in the statute Monday to raise the question, “Did Donald Trump, through action — or inaction — corruptly seek to instruct or impede Congress’ proceedings to count electoral votes?”
The committee has attempted to make the case that even without a “smoking gun” such as Trump admitting on tape he knew the election was lost, a preponderance of evidence should have made that clear to him, and members will lead their case next to the potential legal culpability of Trump’s direct — and indirect pressure — on the Justice Department and state election officials.
Conspiracy to defraud the United States – 18 U.S.C. § 371
This statute, also raised by Cheney ahead of Thursday’s hearing, criminalizes the agreement between two or more persons to “impair, obstruct or defeat the lawful government functions” and is punishable by up to five years in prison.
As part of the “seven-point plot” Cheney has laid out, the committee argues Trump’s legal team violated this federal criminal statute when instructing Republicans in battleground states to replace Biden electors with slates of Trump electors and send those votes to Congress and the National Archives.
While Trump’s intent to defraud would need to be proved for a conviction, experts interviewed by ABC News say, how Trump relates to other potential defendants would be considered when weighing potential criminal charges to bring, and they note some of his closest allies “have very significant criminal exposure.”
Former Trump White House attorney John Eastman, in drafting a plan for Trump to cling to power by falsely claiming Pence could reject legitimate electors, as well as Trump’s former chief of staff Mark Meadows, who allegedly with Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner, told then- Attorney General Bill Barr that Trump was “becoming more realistic” that he lost as they were “working on it,” may have a harder defense to make.
“If those individuals know Trump lost and indicated it, it’s going to be easier to prove the case against them,” Goodman said.
And if those close to Trump are charged, it may be easier to prove he agreed to participate in the conspiracy.
“For example,” Finkelstein said, “if John Eastman is found guilty of conspiracy to defraud the United States or obstruction of an official proceeding and Donald Trump was found to be in a conspiracy with John Eastman, the exact nature of his intent may not have to be the same as if he is a principal defendant because, under federal conspiracy law, he only needs to have agreed to the object to the conspiracy.”
Seditious conspiracy – 18 U.S.C. § 2384
Seditious conspiracy is defined as when two or more people in the U.S. conspire to “overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force” the U.S. government, or to oppose by force and try to prevent the execution of any law. It comes with 20 years in prison if convicted.
Since the use of force is an element of this crime, and Trump was not on the Capitol grounds during the attack, experts cautioned that the burden of proof might be more difficult in this instance.
“It must mean that Trump acted with foreknowledge and intend to use force and violence, and I think that’s going to be very hard to prove, though there is a lot of evidence that points in that direction,” Goodman said.
The Justice Department last week announced an indictment charging the then-leader and four other members of the extremist far-right group the Proud Boys with seditious conspiracy. Three have pleaded not guilty, and two others are set to enter not guilty pleas on Thursday. In an apparent suggestion the two were linked, the committee has argued that hundreds of Proud Boys traveled to Washington specifically for an insurrection, as indicated by members of the group marching on the Capitol before Trump even began speaking.
If the committee accuses Trump of conspiring with Proud Boys or other far-right extremist groups who are accused of organizing the Capitol attack, there’s more potential for a seditious conspiracy charge, which could then trigger Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which prohibits those who had “engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same [United States], or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof” from serving in government.
“But in some sense,” Goodman cautioned, “it’s easier to prove that Trump might have had more knowledge that his supporters would try to enter the Capitol and occupy the Capitol physically but not use violence.”
Fraud by wire, radio or television – 18 U.S.C. § 1343
The committee introduced evidence this week of Trump and his allies fundraising $250 million off fraudulent election claims, asking for money for an “Official Election Defense Fraud” fund — but the panel said no such fund existed — with Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., casting the “big lie” as “a big rip-off.”
“Claims that the election was stolen were so successful, President Trump and his allies raised $250 million, nearly $100 million in the first week after the election,” said Amanda Wick, senior investigative counsel to the committee, in a taped video. “Most of the money raised went to this newly created PAC, not to election-related litigation.”
The allegation has raised questions over potential wire fraud charges, or the attempt to defraud another through physical or electronic mail.
However, experts told ABC News this charge might be more difficult to prove, going back to the question of Trump’s intent. Prosecutors would have to convince a grand jury that Trump intended to mislead.
“He can say, ‘I wasn’t in charge of setting up those fundraising efforts, I didn’t know that they were potentially illegal,'” Wehle said. “So that’s a thornier case.”
To charge or not to charge
The experts ABC spoke with agreed the Jan. 6 committee has made a compelling case so far, and that the onus is on Garland and the Justice Department to follow the roadmap it’s laid out.
They argue the rule of law is at risk.
“What’s at stake is the very structure of our democracy and our ability to hold public officials to the confines of the law,” Finkelstein said.
“The committee’s public hearings have raised the stakes enormously for the country, in the sense that the criminal activity shown to have gone on is so brazen, that if the Justice Department does not enforce the law in this case, it really does further erode the rule of law and democracy,” Goodman said.
“Even if the effort fails, at least there’s a message sent that there is a cop on the block,” Wehle added. “Because we’re headed for a very, very dark era of American history if something doesn’t happen.”
ABC News’ Katherine Faulders, Alexander Mallin and Benjamin Siegel contributed to this report.
(WASHINGTON) — The Jan. 6 committee is holding its third public hearing of the month Thursday with the focus on the pressure campaign on then-Vice President Mike Pence.
The committee says it will detail efforts from then-President Donald Trump and his allies before and on Jan. 6 to get Pence to reject electoral votes Congress was certifying — as part of what it says was a plot to overturn the presidential election.
Please check back for updates. All times Eastern:
Jun 16, 5:23 pm
Witness warns Trump allies ‘executing a blueprint’ to overturn 2024 election
Former federal judge Michael Luttig, in his closing comments before the committee, reiterated his comments in a New York Times op-ed in February that Trump and his allies were “a clear and present danger to democracy,” warning that Trump or his “anointed successor” could succeed in 2024 in overturning those presidential election results where they failed in 2020.
“The former president and his allies are executing a blueprint for 2024, in open and plain view of the American public,” Luttig told lawmakers.
“I don’t speak those words lightly. I would have never spoken those words I ever in my life,” he said. “Except that’s what the former president and his allies are telling us.”
Chairman Bennie Thompson thanked the witnesses for protecting the “foundation” of U.S. democracy and reiterated hit warning as well.
“There are now some who think the danger has passed. That even though there was violence and a corrupt attempt to overturn the presidential election, the system worked,” the Mississippi Democrat said. “I look at it another way: Our system nearly failed, and our democratic foundation destroyed but for people like you.”
Jun 16, 4:14 pm
Chair teases tip line, exhibits available to public online
Chairman Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., closing out Thursday’s hearing, drew attention to the committee’s website — — where the public can view the evidence presented in the public hearings and send tips to the committee as its investigation is ongoing.
“Despite how you may not think it’s important, send us what you think,” he said. “I thank those that sent us evidence, for their bravery and patriotism.”
Jun 16, 4:09 pm
Cheney previews next hearing
With searing new evidence, the committee on Thursday sought to draw a direct link between Trump’s actions and the Capitol attack, which it maintained put Vice President Mike Pence’s life at serious risk.
Vice Chair Liz Cheney, in her closing statement, previewed evidence still to come, promising information in their next hearing on Tuesday about Trump’s efforts to apply pressure to Republican slate legislators, election officials and even federal officials to corrupt the electoral count vote.
“We will examine the Trump team’s determination to transmit material false electoral slates from multiple states to officials of the executive and legislative branches of our government,” she said, and “the pressures put on state legislators to convene to reverse lawful election results.”
After establishing Pence on Thursday as an “honorable man” who had the courage to carry out his constitutional duty on Jan. 6 despite a pressure campaign and threats to his life, Cheney ended by drawing a stark contrast with Trump.
“An honorable man receiving the information and advice that Mr. Trump received from his campaign experts and his staff, a man who loved his country more than himself would have conceded this election,” she said. “Indeed, we know that a number of President Trump’s closest aides urged him to do so.”
Jun 16, 4:03 pm
Eastman emailed Rudy Giuliani to be on ‘pardon list,’ committee says
Trump-allied attorney John Eastman, in the days after Jan. 6, emailed Rudy Giuliani about a possible pardon.
“I’ve decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works,” Eastman wrote to Giuliani, the committee showed.
Eastman wasn’t pardoned and when he was was deposed by the House panel, he pleaded the fifth 100 times, Rep. Pete Aguilar noted.
Jun 16, 3:51 pm
Pence’s life in danger as he hid for hours with rioters 40 feet away: Committee
Showing video footage of Secret Service agents rushing Pence down stairs in the Capitol, the committee said Pence was in hiding for four and a half hours, while, at times, rioters were just 40 feet away.
Greg Jacob, a former adviser to Pence who was with the vice president on Jan. 6 told the hearing room, “I could hear the din of the mob as we moved, but I don’t think I was aware,” when told how close they got.
“Approximately 40 feet, that’s all there was, 40 feet between the vice president and the mob,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif., telling Jacob, “Forty feet is the distance from me to you roughly.”
“Make no mistake about the fact that the vice president’s life was in danger,” Aguilar said, arguing the “big lie” directly contributed to the Capitol attack and put Pence’s life at serious risk. “A recent court filing by the Department of Justice explains that a confidential informant from the Proud Boys told the FBI that the Proud Boys would’ve killed Mike Pence, if given the chance.”
Jun 16, 3:50 pm
Trump attorney pressured Pence to delay certification even after the riot, email shows
John Eastman, an attorney advising the Trump campaign, sent an email after the riot at the U.S. Capitol to once again pressure Pence to violate the Electoral Count Act, according to the committee’s presentation Thursday.
“I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation and adjourn for ten days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations,” Eastman wrote to Pence adviser Greg Jacob at 11:44 p.m. that day.
Jacob said he relayed Eastman’s message to Pence, who responded that the email was “rubber room stuff.”
“What did you interpret that to mean?” Rep. Pete Aguilar asked Jacob.
Jacob replied he translated that to mean Pence was calling it “certifiably crazy.”
Former White House lawyer Eric Herschmann told the committee that on Jan. 7, 2021, after Pence certified Joe Biden’s victory, Eastman called him to talk about a possible appeal in Georgia.
“I said to him, ‘Are you out of your f—— mind?’ I said, ‘I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth for now: orderly transition,” Herschmann recalled.
Jun 16, 3:39 pm
Trump aware of insurrection underway when he tweeted criticism at Pence: Committee
The committee displayed a slate of video testimony from those inside the White House and close to Trump to argue he was well aware of the violence underway on the Capitol grounds on Jan. 6 when he tweeted, “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what was necessary” at 2:24 p.m.
Trump White House aide Sarah Matthews, in video testimony with the committee, recalled, “It felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that.”
“It was clear that it is escalating, and escalating quickly,” she said. “When the Mike Pence tweet was sent out, I remember us saying that that was the last thing that needed to be tweeted out. The situation was already bad.”
Earlier, Rep. Pete Aguilar noted that the Capitol building itself was breached at 2:13 p.m. As the attack continued, Trump tweeted to “stay peaceful” at 2:38 p.m., said “no violence” at 3:13 p.m., and finally, at 4:17, he tweeted a video that telling people to go home while also saying, “We love you,” and repeating the false claim the election was stolen.
Jun 16, 3:24 pm
Witnesses recount for first time ‘heated’ Jan. 6 call between Trump, Pence: ‘Wimp’
Ivanka Trump, former White House lawyer Eric Herschmann and others told the committee in previously taped testimony what they heard when Trump called Pence from the Oval Office on Jan. 6.
“The conversation was pretty heated,” Ivanka Trump recalled.
Nicholas Luna, Trump’s former assistant, described entering the Oval Office at the time to deliver a note and hearing Trump say the word “wimp.”
“I remember hearing the word ‘wimp’,” Luna told the committee. “Either he called him a wimp, I don’t remember if he said, ‘You are a wimp, you’ll be a wimp.’ Wimp is the word I remember.”
Gen. Keith Kellog, Pence’s national security adviser at the time, said in his deposition that Trump told Pence he wasn’t “tough” enough. Ivanka’s chief of staff, Julie Radford, told the committee that Ivanka said Trump called Pence “the p-word.”
Jun 16, 3:10 pm
Committee says Trump’s chief of staff discussed how plan was illegal
Committee members revealed evidence that White House chief of staff Mark Meadows knew — or was at least telling other aides that he agreed with their view — that Trump and his attorney John Eastman’s plan to overturn the election was illegal and that Pence had no ability to reject electoral votes for Biden sent to Congress.
In his taped interview with the committee, Pence’s chief of staff Marc Short told panel lawyers that that Meadows, Trump’s chief of staff, said he agreed with Short and Pence that the vice president lacked such authority.
“Did Mr. Meadows ever explicitly … agree with you or say, ‘Yeah, that makes sense’?” interviewers asked.
“I believe that Mark did agree,” Short said. “But as I mentioned, I think Mark told so many people so many different things that it was not something that I would necessarily accept as … resolved.”
-ABC News’ Benjamin Siegel
Jun 16, 3:04 pm
Pence’s chief of staff alerted Secret Service about VP’s safety on Jan. 5
Marc Short, Pence’s former chief of staff, said he grew worried about the vice president’s safety as the disagreement between Pence and Trump escalated in the days leading up to Jan. 6.
“The concern was for the vice president’s security, so I wanted to make sure the head of the vice president’s Secret Service was aware that likely, as these disputes became more public, that the president would lash out in some way,” Short said in his taped deposition.
Short called the Secret Service on Jan. 5, 2021.
“After the recess, we will hear that Marc Short’s concerns were justified,” Rep. Pete Anguilar said. “The vice president was in danger.”
Jun 16, 2:58 pm
DOJ tells committee it’s ‘critical’ to provide investigation intel
As Attorney General Merrick Garland and his prosecutors are closely watching the hearings conducted by the committee this week, the Department of Justice sent a new letter telling the committee it is “critical” members “provide us with copies of the transcripts of all its witness interviews.”
In a letter to the committee’s chief investigator Wednesday, senior officials at the Justice Department said that the first two hearings this month showed the interviews conducted by the hearing “are not just potentially relevant to our overall criminal investigations but are likely relevant to specific prosecutions that have already commenced.”
The request suggests there are matters beyond violence on the ground on Jan. 6 that the Justice Department is already investigating — specifically alternate or fake electors as a part of the theory that Pence could unilaterally block the ceremony of Joe Biden as President.
Click here for more on potential federal crimes the committee has floated.
-ABC News’ Alexander Mallin
Jun 16, 3:23 pm
Attorney who pushed theory Pence could save Trump previously dismissed that same claim: Docs
Trump White House attorney John Eastman, at the center of the alleged scheme to send a false slate of electors to Congress and have Pence refuse to certify votes, based his reasoning on a theory the committee argued he never believed.
According to the committee, Eastman sought to take advantage of an ambiguity in the Electoral Count Act and claim the vice president could has the constitutional authority to reject electoral votes outright and use his capacity as presiding officer to suspend the proceedings.
“He described for me what he thought the ambiguity was in the statute. And he was walking through it at that time. And I said, ‘Hold on a second, I don’t understand you’re saying,'” said former Trump White House attorney Eric Herschmann in taped testimony.
Showing past documents, the committee said that Eastman had dismissed the same power he later claimed Pence could have used.
“In this letter, an idea was proposed that the vice president could determine which electors to count — but the person writing in blue negates that argument,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar. “Judge Luttig, does it surprise you that the author of those comments in blue, are in fact, John Eastman?
Former federal judge Michael Luttig responded “yes” and called it “constitutional mischief.”
Jun 16, 2:32 pm
Pence told Trump ‘many times’ he couldn’t overturn election: Marc Short
The committee aired several clips featuring Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Jason Miller, Steve Bannon and others publicly pressuring Pence to refuse the Electoral College votes that were in favor of Joe Biden.
“I hope Mike Pence comes through for us,” Trump said in one video from his rally at the Ellipse on Jan. 6, 2021. “He’s a great guy. If he doesn’t come through, I won’t like him quite as much.”
Marc Short, Pence’s former chief of staff, told the committee in previously recorded testimony that Pence directly conveyed his view to Trump “many times” that he didn’t have the authority to do what they were asking of him.
“He’d been consistent in conveying his position to the president?” the committee asked Short.
“Very consistent,” Short replied.
Jun 16, 2:09 pm
Pence and adviser found that ‘history was absolutely decisive’: He couldn’t help Trump
Greg Jacob, a former adviser to Pence, said they analyzed history and constitutional text to map out the vice president’s role when it came to certifying elections.
The two then examined “every single electoral vote count that had happened in Congress” since the country’s founding, Jacob testified. They found no vice president ever claimed to have the kind of authority Trump and his attorney John Eastman claimed Pence had.
“The history was absolutely decisive and again, part of my discussion with Mr. Eastman was, ‘If you were right, don’t you think Al Gore might have liked to have known in 2000 that he had authority to just declare himself president of the United States? Did you think that the Democrat lawyers just didn’t think of this very obvious quirk that he could use to do that?’”
Jun 16, 2:15 pm
Trump, Pence haven’t spoken in a year: Sources
Trump and Pence haven’t spoken to one another since last summer, according to sources familiar with their conversations.
Pence defended Trump through a slate of controversies during their administration. But, as the House committee is highlighting at its hearings, Pence drew a line at Trump’s alleged plot to overturn the election — breaking from the president and drawing the rage of the Trump mob on Jan. 6.
When ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl interviewed Trump for his book “Betrayal,” Karl asked about the “Hang Mike Pence” chants and whether Trump had been concerned for the safety of the man he chose to be his vice president.
“Well, the people were very angry,” Trump said.
“They said, ‘hang Mike Pence,’” Karl told Trump.
“It’s common sense, Jon. It’s common sense that you’re supposed to protect,” Trump said. “How can you, if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?”
While Pence himself isn’t testifying and has not sat before the committee, a range of former Pence aides cooperated with the investigation.
Since his term ended, Pence has publicly reiterated he had no power to overturn the 2020 results. But like other conservatives, he has said “election integrity” should be a national priority.
-ABC News’ Katherine Faulders
Jun 16, 1:40 pm
Inside the hearing room
Notable faces were spotted across the hearing room as proceedings kicked off Thursday.
Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, Capitol Police Staff Sgt. Aquilino Gonell, Metropolitan Police Officer Daniel Hodges and former Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone, who testified at the committee’s first hearing last year on their experience defending the Capitol on Jan. 6, were all present.
Former Pence national security adviser Olivia Troye, who resigned from the administration in 2020, was spotted sitting next to Gonell as well as Allison Gill, a former high-level Veterans Affairs official who was secretly recording a podcast on the weekends about Robert Mueller’s investigation that attracted thousands of listeners.
A couple of members of Congress have been spotted in the back of the room including Reps. Ayanna Pressley, D-Mass., and Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., sitting together. Rep. Adam Kinzinger, R-Ill., who along with Vice Chair Liz Cheney has been ostracized by the Republican Party for speaking out against Trump, also stopped by.
-ABC News’ Katherine Faulders and Benjamin Siegel
Jun 16, 1:35 pm
Retired judge says Trump risked throwing country into ‘revolution’
In his testimony on Thursday, former federal judge Michael Luttig painted a dire picture of what he believed would have happened had Pence followed through with Trump’s plea to remain in power.
“That declaration of Donald Trump as the next president would have plunged America into what I believe would’ve been tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis in America,” Luttig said, “which in my view, and I am only one man, would’ve been the first constitutional crisis since the founding of the republic.”
Luttig is one of the panel’s two live witnesses in today’s hearing. The former judge informally advised Pence on his role in affirming the results of the 2020 presidential election.
Jun 16, 1:35 pm
Clip played of Pence saying Trump was ‘wrong’
In her opening statement, Vice Chair Liz Cheney played a clip of a Pence pushing back against Trump’s claim that he had the power to overturn the 2020 election in the weeks after the Jan. 6 attack.
“President Trump is wrong,” Pence said in a speech in February before The Federalist Society. “I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone. And frankly, there is no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president.”
Cheney said the select committee will now reveal the details of that pressure campaign.
Jun 16, 1:10 pm
Thompson commends Pence’s ‘courage’ in rejecting Trump’s orders
The House select committee has kicked off its third of seven public hearings slated for this month.
Chairman Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., gaveled in the hearing just after 1 p.m.
“Donald Trump wanted Mike Pence to do something no other vice president has ever done,” Thompson said in his opening remarks. “The former president wanted Pence to reject the votes and either declare Trump the winner or send the votes back to the states to be counted again. Mike Pence said no. He resisted the pressure. He knew it was illegal. He knew it was wrong. We are fortunate for Mr. Pence’s courage on Jan. 6. Our democracy came dangerously close to catastrophe. That courage put him in tremendous danger.”
Jun 16, 11:22 am
Live witnesses for Thursday
Pence himself will not appear before the committee, but his adviser Greg Jacobs — who was with the former vice president the day of the Capitol insurrection — is slated to testify. Jacobs, who is an attorney, pushed back against legal theories that Pence could single-handedly stop Joe Biden from becoming president.
Former federal judge Michael Luttig will also testify in front of lawmakers. Luttig previously told ABC News that if Pence had attempted to keep Trump in power, he would’ve “plunged the country into a constitutional crisis of the highest order.”
In addition to the live witnesses, the committee is expected to include pre-recorded video testimony from Marc Short, Pence’s former chief of staff, and others who have been deposed behind closed doors.
Jun 16, 11:02 am
Rep. Pete Aguilar to lead hearing
Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif., is going to be leading this third hearing, which he said will “lay out new evidence about the pressure campaign against Vice President Pence asking him to reject the votes of millions of people.”
Former U.S. Attorney John Wood will also be questioning the witnesses on Thursday, according to committee aides. Wood was federal prosecutor during the George W. Bush administration and is now a senior investigative counsel for the House committee.
Aguilar told reporters earlier this week that through these public hearings, the committee is making the point that “Trump was at the center of a coordinated strategy to overturn the results of a free and fair election.”
Jun 16, 10:29 am
Thursday to focus on Trump pressuring Pence
The House select committee investigating the attack on the Capitol will convene its third public hearing of the month at 1 p.m. with members set to focus on how former President Donald Trump pressured then-Vice President Mike Pence with “relentless effort” to intervene to help overturn the 2020 election.
“President Trump had no factual basis for what he was doing and he had been told it was illegal,” Vice Chair Liz Cheney said in a video teasing Thursday’s hearing. “Despite this, President Trump plotted with a lawyer named John Eastman and others to overturn the outcome of the election on Jan. 6.”
A key component of evidence is never-before-seen photos of Pence and his family taken by an official White House photographer on Jan. 6 itself. In one — obtained by ABC News’ Jonathan Karl ahead of the hearing — second lady Karen Pence is seen hurriedly closing the curtains of the vice president’s ceremonial office at the Capitol, apparently fearful the mob outside could see where they were.
Last week, at the prime-time kickoff to this round of hearings, Cheney teased testimony to come around Trump’s awareness of rioters’ “hang Mike Pence” chants. Quoting from witness testimony, Cheney said Trump suggested as the attack was underway: “Maybe our supporters have the right idea. Mike Pence deserves it.”
(WASHINGTON) — Georgia Republican Senate nominee Herschel Walker this week acknowledged he has three more children in addition to the son, Christian, he has publicly helped raise for the last 20 years.
Walker’s statements on the matter, issued via his campaign, come after a series of reports in The Daily Beast about his other kids — all of whom have remained out of the spotlight cast on their father, a businessman and college football legend in his home state.
Walker, who has talked about the importance of his being a dad to Christian, had not previously discussed his role as a parent to multiple children.
The issue of Walker’s involvement as a father has brought renewed focus to the fact that he has repeatedly touted the importance of being an active father and, in particular, has said “the fatherless home is a major, major problem” for Black people.
It is, however, unclear what role Walker has played in the life of his children beyond Christian, a budding conservative social media influencer whom he shares with his first wife.
In statements to ABC News, Walker pushed back on any criticism that his kids were kept out of view.
“I have four children. Three sons and a daughter. They’re not ‘undisclosed’ – they’re my kids,” he said on Thursday. “I support them all and love them all. I’ve never denied my children, I confirmed this when I was appointed to the President’s Council on Sports Fitness and Nutrition, I just chose not to use them as props to win a political campaign. What parent would want their child involved in garbage, gutter politics like this?”
He continued: “Saying I hide my children because I don’t discuss them with reporters to win a campaign? That’s outrageous. I can take the heat, that’s politics — but leave my kids alone.”
A court order obtained by ABC News shows Walker admitted in 2013 to being the youngest boy’s father after the boy’s mother filed a paternity petition that April.
In an initial statement on Wednesday, Walker’s campaign manager, Scott Paradise, insisted that the 10-year-old boy wasn’t being hidden.
“Herschel had a child years ago when he wasn’t married. He’s supported the child and continues to do so. He’s proud of his children,” Paradise said. “To suggest that Herschel is ‘hiding’ the child because he hasn’t used him in his political campaign is offensive and absurd.”
Paradise pointed to Democratic Sen. Raphael Warnock’s court fight with his ex-wife over their child custody arrangement. (Walker hopes to unseat Warnock in November.)
A spokeswoman for Warnock, Meredith Brasher, told ABC News on Wednesday he is a “devoted father who is proud to continue to co-parent his two children as he works for the people of Georgia.”
Walker, who easily won the Republican nomination in the state’s primary in May, has previously faced scrutiny about his personal life. That includes allegations of violent behavior and his diagnosis with dissociative identity disorder, or D.I.D., a complex mental health condition characterized by some severe and potentially debilitating symptoms.
Walker has denied some of the past allegations of domestic violence, physical threats and stalking; others he claimed not to remember.
His campaign previously referred ABC News to his 2008 memoir, which detailed his D.I.D. diagnosis, and a 2008 interview he did with ABC News in which he discussed its effects on his first marriage.
ABC News’ Lucien Bruggeman, Pete Madden and Stephanie Lorenzo contributed to this report.
(WASHINGTON) — The Jan. 6 committee is holding its third public hearing of the month Thursday with the focus on the pressure campaign on then-Vice President Mike Pence.
The committee says it will detail efforts from then-President Donald Trump and his allies before and on Jan. 6 to get Pence to reject electoral votes Congress was certifying — as part of what it says was a plot to overturn the presidential election.
Please check back for updates. All times Eastern:
Jun 16, 3:51 pm
Pence’s life in danger as he hid for hours with rioters 40 feet away: Committee
Showing video footage of Secret Service agents rushing Pence down stairs in the Capitol, the committee said Pence was in hiding for four and a half hours, while, at times, rioters were just 40 feet away.
Greg Jacob, a former adviser to Pence who was with the vice president on Jan. 6 told the hearing room, “I could hear the din of the mob as we moved, but I don’t think I was aware,” when told how close they got.
“Approximately 40 feet, that’s all there was, 40 feet between the vice president and the mob,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif., telling Jacob, “Forty feet is the distance from me to you roughly.”
“Make no mistake about the fact that the vice president’s life was in danger,” Aguilar said, arguing the “big lie” directly contributed to the Capitol attack and put Pence’s life at serious risk. “A recent court filing by the Department of Justice explains that a confidential informant from the Proud Boys told the FBI that the Proud Boys would’ve killed Mike Pence, if given the chance.”
Jun 16, 3:50 pm
Trump attorney pressured Pence to delay certification even after the riot, email shows
John Eastman, an attorney advising the Trump campaign, sent an email after the riot at the U.S. Capitol to once again pressure Pence to violate the Electoral Count Act, according to the committee’s presentation Thursday.
“I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation and adjourn for ten days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations,” Eastman wrote to Pence adviser Greg Jacob at 11:44 p.m. that day.
Jacob said he relayed Eastman’s message to Pence, who responded that the email was “rubber room stuff.”
“What did you interpret that to mean?” Rep. Pete Aguilar asked Jacob.
Jacob replied he translated that to mean Pence was calling it “certifiably crazy.”
Former White House lawyer Eric Herschmann told the committee that on Jan. 7, 2021, after Pence certified Joe Biden’s victory, Eastman called him to talk about a possible appeal in Georgia.
“I said to him, ‘Are you out of your f—— mind?’ I said, ‘I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth for now: orderly transition,” Herschmann recalled.
Jun 16, 3:39 pm
Trump aware of insurrection underway when he tweeted criticism at Pence: Committee
The committee displayed a slate of video testimony from those inside the White House and close to Trump to argue he was well aware of the violence underway on the Capitol grounds on Jan. 6 when he tweeted, “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what was necessary” at 2:24 p.m.
Trump White House aide Sarah Matthews, in video testimony with the committee, recalled, “It felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that.”
“It was clear that it is escalating, and escalating quickly,” she said. “When the Mike Pence tweet was sent out, I remember us saying that that was the last thing that needed to be tweeted out. The situation was already bad.”
Earlier, Rep. Pete Aguilar noted that the Capitol building itself was breached at 2:13 p.m. As the attack continued, Trump tweeted to “stay peaceful” at 2:38 p.m., said “no violence” at 3:13 p.m., and finally, at 4:17, he tweeted a video that telling people to go home while also saying, “We love you,” and repeating the false claim the election was stolen.
Jun 16, 3:24 pm
Witnesses recount for first time ‘heated’ Jan. 6 call between Trump, Pence: ‘Wimp’
Ivanka Trump, former White House lawyer Eric Herschmann and others told the committee in previously taped testimony what they heard when Trump called Pence from the Oval Office on Jan. 6.
“The conversation was pretty heated,” Ivanka Trump recalled.
Nicholas Luna, Trump’s former assistant, described entering the Oval Office at the time to deliver a note and hearing Trump say the word “wimp.”
“I remember hearing the word ‘wimp’,” Luna told the committee. “Either he called him a wimp, I don’t remember if he said, ‘You are a wimp, you’ll be a wimp.’ Wimp is the word I remember.”
Gen. Keith Kellog, Pence’s national security adviser at the time, said in his deposition that Trump told Pence he wasn’t “tough” enough. Ivanka’s chief of staff, Julie Radford, told the committee that Ivanka said Trump called Pence “the p-word.”
Jun 16, 3:10 pm
Committee says Trump’s chief of staff discussed how plan was illegal
Committee members revealed evidence that White House chief of staff Mark Meadows knew — or was at least telling other aides that he agreed with their view — that Trump and his attorney John Eastman’s plan to overturn the election was illegal and that Pence had no ability to reject electoral votes for Biden sent to Congress.
In his taped interview with the committee, Pence’s chief of staff Marc Short told panel lawyers that that Meadows, Trump’s chief of staff, said he agreed with Short and Pence that the vice president lacked such authority.
“Did Mr. Meadows ever explicitly … agree with you or say, ‘Yeah, that makes sense’?” interviewers asked.
“I believe that Mark did agree,” Short said. “But as I mentioned, I think Mark told so many people so many different things that it was not something that I would necessarily accept as … resolved.”
-ABC News’ Benjamin Siegel
Jun 16, 3:04 pm
Pence’s chief of staff alerted Secret Service about VP’s safety on Jan. 5
Marc Short, Pence’s former chief of staff, said he grew worried about the vice president’s safety as the disagreement between Pence and Trump escalated in the days leading up to Jan. 6.
“The concern was for the vice president’s security, so I wanted to make sure the head of the vice president’s Secret Service was aware that likely, as these disputes became more public, that the president would lash out in some way,” Short said in his taped deposition.
Short called the Secret Service on Jan. 5, 2021.
“After the recess, we will hear that Marc Short’s concerns were justified,” Rep. Pete Anguilar said. “The vice president was in danger.”
Jun 16, 2:58 pm
DOJ tells committee it’s ‘critical’ to provide investigation intel
As Attorney General Merrick Garland and his prosecutors are closely watching the hearings conducted by the committee this week, the Department of Justice sent a new letter telling the committee it is “critical” members “provide us with copies of the transcripts of all its witness interviews.”
In a letter to the committee’s chief investigator Wednesday, senior officials at the Justice Department said that the first two hearings this month showed the interviews conducted by the hearing “are not just potentially relevant to our overall criminal investigations but are likely relevant to specific prosecutions that have already commenced.”
The request suggests there are matters beyond violence on the ground on Jan. 6 that the Justice Department is already investigating — specifically alternate or fake electors as a part of the theory that Pence could unilaterally block the ceremony of Joe Biden as President.
Click here for more on potential federal crimes the committee has floated.
-ABC News’ Alexander Mallin
Jun 16, 3:23 pm
Attorney who pushed theory Pence could save Trump previously dismissed that same claim: Docs
Trump White House attorney John Eastman, at the center of the alleged scheme to send a false slate of electors to Congress and have Pence refuse to certify votes, based his reasoning on a theory the committee argued he never believed.
According to the committee, Eastman sought to take advantage of an ambiguity in the Electoral Count Act and claim the vice president could has the constitutional authority to reject electoral votes outright and use his capacity as presiding officer to suspend the proceedings.
“He described for me what he thought the ambiguity was in the statute. And he was walking through it at that time. And I said, ‘Hold on a second, I don’t understand you’re saying,'” said former Trump White House attorney Eric Herschmann in taped testimony.
Showing past documents, the committee said that Eastman had dismissed the same power he later claimed Pence could have used.
“In this letter, an idea was proposed that the vice president could determine which electors to count — but the person writing in blue negates that argument,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar. “Judge Luttig, does it surprise you that the author of those comments in blue, are in fact, John Eastman?
Former federal judge Michael Luttig responded “yes” and called it “constitutional mischief.”
Jun 16, 2:32 pm
Pence told Trump ‘many times’ he couldn’t overturn election: Marc Short
The committee aired several clips featuring Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Jason Miller, Steve Bannon and others publicly pressuring Pence to refuse the Electoral College votes that were in favor of Joe Biden.
“I hope Mike Pence comes through for us,” Trump said in one video from his rally at the Ellipse on Jan. 6, 2021. “He’s a great guy. If he doesn’t come through, I won’t like him quite as much.”
Marc Short, Pence’s former chief of staff, told the committee in previously recorded testimony that Pence directly conveyed his view to Trump “many times” that he didn’t have the authority to do what they were asking of him.
“He’d been consistent in conveying his position to the president?” the committee asked Short.
“Very consistent,” Short replied.
Jun 16, 2:09 pm
Pence and adviser found that ‘history was absolutely decisive’: He couldn’t help Trump
Greg Jacob, a former adviser to Pence, said they analyzed history and constitutional text to map out the vice president’s role when it came to certifying elections.
The two then examined “every single electoral vote count that had happened in Congress” since the country’s founding, Jacob testified. They found no vice president ever claimed to have the kind of authority Trump and his attorney John Eastman claimed Pence had.
“The history was absolutely decisive and again, part of my discussion with Mr. Eastman was, ‘If you were right, don’t you think Al Gore might have liked to have known in 2000 that he had authority to just declare himself president of the United States? Did you think that the Democrat lawyers just didn’t think of this very obvious quirk that he could use to do that?’”
Jun 16, 2:15 pm
Trump, Pence haven’t spoken in a year: Sources
Trump and Pence haven’t spoken to one another since last summer, according to sources familiar with their conversations.
Pence defended Trump through a slate of controversies during their administration. But, as the House committee is highlighting at its hearings, Pence drew a line at Trump’s alleged plot to overturn the election — breaking from the president and drawing the rage of the Trump mob on Jan. 6.
When ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl interviewed Trump for his book “Betrayal,” Karl asked about the “Hang Mike Pence” chants and whether Trump had been concerned for the safety of the man he chose to be his vice president.
“Well, the people were very angry,” Trump said.
“They said, ‘hang Mike Pence,’” Karl told Trump.
“It’s common sense, Jon. It’s common sense that you’re supposed to protect,” Trump said. “How can you, if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?”
While Pence himself isn’t testifying and has not sat before the committee, a range of former Pence aides cooperated with the investigation.
Since his term ended, Pence has publicly reiterated he had no power to overturn the 2020 results. But like other conservatives, he has said “election integrity” should be a national priority.
-ABC News’ Katherine Faulders
Jun 16, 1:40 pm
Inside the hearing room
Notable faces were spotted across the hearing room as proceedings kicked off Thursday.
Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, Capitol Police Staff Sgt. Aquilino Gonell, Metropolitan Police Officer Daniel Hodges and former Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone, who testified at the committee’s first hearing last year on their experience defending the Capitol on Jan. 6, were all present.
Former Pence national security adviser Olivia Troye, who resigned from the administration in 2020, was spotted sitting next to Gonell as well as Allison Gill, a former high-level Veterans Affairs official who was secretly recording a podcast on the weekends about Robert Mueller’s investigation that attracted thousands of listeners.
A couple of members of Congress have been spotted in the back of the room including Reps. Ayanna Pressley, D-Mass., and Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., sitting together. Rep. Adam Kinzinger, R-Ill., who along with Vice Chair Liz Cheney has been ostracized by the Republican Party for speaking out against Trump, also stopped by.
-ABC News’ Katherine Faulders and Benjamin Siegel
Jun 16, 1:35 pm
Retired judge says Trump risked throwing country into ‘revolution’
In his testimony on Thursday, former federal judge Michael Luttig painted a dire picture of what he believed would have happened had Pence followed through with Trump’s plea to remain in power.
“That declaration of Donald Trump as the next president would have plunged America into what I believe would’ve been tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis in America,” Luttig said, “which in my view, and I am only one man, would’ve been the first constitutional crisis since the founding of the republic.”
Luttig is one of the panel’s two live witnesses in today’s hearing. The former judge informally advised Pence on his role in affirming the results of the 2020 presidential election.
Jun 16, 1:35 pm
Clip played of Pence saying Trump was ‘wrong’
In her opening statement, Vice Chair Liz Cheney played a clip of a Pence pushing back against Trump’s claim that he had the power to overturn the 2020 election in the weeks after the Jan. 6 attack.
“President Trump is wrong,” Pence said in a speech in February before The Federalist Society. “I had no right to overturn the election. The presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone. And frankly, there is no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president.”
Cheney said the select committee will now reveal the details of that pressure campaign.
Jun 16, 1:10 pm
Thompson commends Pence’s ‘courage’ in rejecting Trump’s orders
The House select committee has kicked off its third of seven public hearings slated for this month.
Chairman Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., gaveled in the hearing just after 1 p.m.
“Donald Trump wanted Mike Pence to do something no other vice president has ever done,” Thompson said in his opening remarks. “The former president wanted Pence to reject the votes and either declare Trump the winner or send the votes back to the states to be counted again. Mike Pence said no. He resisted the pressure. He knew it was illegal. He knew it was wrong. We are fortunate for Mr. Pence’s courage on Jan. 6. Our democracy came dangerously close to catastrophe. That courage put him in tremendous danger.”
Jun 16, 11:22 am
Live witnesses for Thursday
Pence himself will not appear before the committee, but his adviser Greg Jacobs — who was with the former vice president the day of the Capitol insurrection — is slated to testify. Jacobs, who is an attorney, pushed back against legal theories that Pence could single-handedly stop Joe Biden from becoming president.
Former federal judge Michael Luttig will also testify in front of lawmakers. Luttig previously told ABC News that if Pence had attempted to keep Trump in power, he would’ve “plunged the country into a constitutional crisis of the highest order.”
In addition to the live witnesses, the committee is expected to include pre-recorded video testimony from Marc Short, Pence’s former chief of staff, and others who have been deposed behind closed doors.
Jun 16, 11:02 am
Rep. Pete Aguilar to lead hearing
Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif., is going to be leading this third hearing, which he said will “lay out new evidence about the pressure campaign against Vice President Pence asking him to reject the votes of millions of people.”
Former U.S. Attorney John Wood will also be questioning the witnesses on Thursday, according to committee aides. Wood was federal prosecutor during the George W. Bush administration and is now a senior investigative counsel for the House committee.
Aguilar told reporters earlier this week that through these public hearings, the committee is making the point that “Trump was at the center of a coordinated strategy to overturn the results of a free and fair election.”
Jun 16, 10:29 am
Thursday to focus on Trump pressuring Pence
The House select committee investigating the attack on the Capitol will convene its third public hearing of the month at 1 p.m. with members set to focus on how former President Donald Trump pressured then-Vice President Mike Pence with “relentless effort” to intervene to help overturn the 2020 election.
“President Trump had no factual basis for what he was doing and he had been told it was illegal,” Vice Chair Liz Cheney said in a video teasing Thursday’s hearing. “Despite this, President Trump plotted with a lawyer named John Eastman and others to overturn the outcome of the election on Jan. 6.”
A key component of evidence is never-before-seen photos of Pence and his family taken by an official White House photographer on Jan. 6 itself. In one — obtained by ABC News’ Jonathan Karl ahead of the hearing — second lady Karen Pence is seen hurriedly closing the curtains of the vice president’s ceremonial office at the Capitol, apparently fearful the mob outside could see where they were.
Last week, at the prime-time kickoff to this round of hearings, Cheney teased testimony to come around Trump’s awareness of rioters’ “hang Mike Pence” chants. Quoting from witness testimony, Cheney said Trump suggested as the attack was underway: “Maybe our supporters have the right idea. Mike Pence deserves it.”
(WASHINGTON) — Chairman Bennie Thompson told reporters Thursday that the Jan. 6 committee will “soon” invite Ginni Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and an avid Trump supporter, to speak with the panel.
“We think it’s time that we would, at some point, invite her to come talk to the committee,” Thompson said in the wake of revelations about emails that sources said she exchanged with right-wing lawyer John Eastman, a former clerk to Justice Thomas.
The committee has said Eastman was the mastermind behind the legal scheme to fraudulently overturn the election, in part by pressuring then-Vice President Mike Pence to reject some states’ legitimate electoral votes on Jan. 6 when Congress met to certify the election results.
Thompson didn’t give any details about public or private testimony and when the committee would make a formal invitation.
An aide to Jan. 6 committee Vice Chair Liz Cheney said she agrees it is time to formally ask Ginni Thomas to speak with the committee.
It is still unclear when the committee would ask Thomas to come and in what form they would request to speak with her.
ABC News has reached out to her lawyer for comment.
Sources confirmed to ABC News on Wednesday that the committee has come into possession of emails between Eastman and Ginni Thomas.
The existence of the emails was first reported by the Washington Post.
It’s unclear what the communications between Eastman and Ginni Thomas say, but Eastman has fought the committee’s document requests in court.
A federal judge has ruled twice that he must turn some of these documents over and the committee has just recently begun receiving the second tranche of them.
Investigators are discussing next steps and deciding how much of a focus they should put on Thomas and her communications with people like Eastman and former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows during its public hearings.
(WASHINGTON) — The Jan. 6 committee is holding its third public hearing of the month Thursday with the focus on the pressure campaign on then-Vice President Mike Pence.
The committee says it will detail efforts from then-President Donald Trump and his allies before and on Jan. 6 to get Pence to reject electoral votes Congress was certifying — as part of what it says was a plot to overturn the presidential election.
Please check back for updates. All times Eastern:
Jun 16, 10:29 am
Thursday to focus on Trump pressuring Pence
The House select committee investigating the attack on the Capitol will convene its third public hearing of the month at 1 p.m. with members set to focus on how former President Donald Trump pressured then-Vice President Mike Pence with “relentless effort” to intervene to help overturn the 2020 election.
“President Trump had no factual basis for what he was doing and he had been told it was illegal,” Vice Chair Liz Cheney said in a video teasing Thursday’s hearing. “Despite this, President Trump plotted with a lawyer named John Eastman and others to overturn the outcome of the election on Jan. 6.”
A key component of evidence is never-before-seen photos of Pence and his family taken by an official White House photographer on Jan. 6 itself. In one — obtained by ABC News’ Jonathan Karl ahead of the hearing — second lady Karen Pence is seen hurriedly closing the curtains of the vice president’s ceremonial office at the Capitol, apparently fearful the mob outside could see where they were.
Last week, at the prime-time kickoff to this round of hearings, Cheney teased testimony to come around Trump’s awareness of rioters’ “hang Mike Pence” chants. Quoting from witness testimony, Cheney said Trump suggested as the attack was underway: “Maybe our supporters have the right idea. Mike Pence deserves it.”
(WASHINGTON) — Top negotiators on a bipartisan gun safety framework huddled behind closed doors for several hours Wednesday evening to try to solve remaining differences on the package, but the group’s effort to expedite passage of an agreement is stalled, at least for the moment.
Since a group of 10 Democrats and 10 Republicans announced an agreement on a framework of proposals aimed at curbing gun violence in the wake of mass shootings in Uvalde, Texas, and Buffalo, New York, on Sunday, a bipartisan group of senators has been working to speedily turn the list of ideas into a bill ready for consideration on the Senate floor next week. But two provisions, one focused on incentivizing states to implement violence prevention programs, and another dealing with closing the so-called “boyfriend loophole,” are now plaguing negotiations, chief Republican negotiator John Cornyn, R-Texas, said Wednesday.
“If we can settle these two issues, I think we’re on our way, but I am concerned now given the time it takes and the need to complete our work really by tomorrow that we’ve got to settle these issues,” Cornyn told reporters Wednesday morning.
When negotiators emerged from their meeting Wednesday evening, they noted some progress, but said discussions on these two major issues will need to continue Thursday.
“We did make progress,” Cornyn said. “But we’re not there yet.”
“We are continuing to make progress,” Sen. Chris Murphy, the top Democratic negotiator, said after Cornyn’s departure. “This is a very tight timeline to land some very serious issues.”
Senators are feeling the time crunch as they try to meet an ambitious deadline to turn their announced framework into law. If senators wish to see a vote on their package before the Senate departs for a two-week recess on June 27, they need to turn their framework agreement into bill text that other Senators can review and vote on.
Challenges over how to create a program to support or incentivize state violence prevention programs — including red flag laws designed to temporarily seize weapons from those deemed by a court to be a danger to themselves or others — have been bubbling up in the Republican conference since the proposed framework was announced.
According to Cornyn, negotiators are struggling over whether funds made available to states to support red flag programs should also be available to states with other types of violence prevention programs, like veterans’ courts, mental health courts and assisted outpatient treatment programs.
Some Republicans have long struggled with red flag programs out of concern that these provisions violate the due process rights of those accused of being a threat. During a closed-door Republican conference meeting on Tuesday, several Republican lawmakers outside of the negotiating group told ABC News they had concerns about provisions supporting red flag laws.
Cornyn, according to numerous participants, repeatedly assured his colleagues that there would be no federal mandate to implement the laws. He also echoed an earlier speech in which he said their impending legislation would ensure that any state that does take federal funding would be required to ensure the due process rights of anyone potentially falling under a red flag order, also called an “extreme risk protection order.”
“Most of the discussion was around the red flag issue, and that is my greatest concern as well that we do it right,” said Sen. Kevin Cramer, R-ND, on Tuesday. “I think we’re more interested in the red wave than we are in red flags, quite honestly, as Republicans and we have a pretty good opportunity to do that,” seemingly a reference to the possibility of Republicans taking control of Congress this fall.
Still, Democrats are optimistic there’s a solution on the red flag issue. Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-CT., who has been leading the group’s efforts on red flag laws, said Wednesday that negotiators have already been in discussion on a “very doable” solution.
“We need to support every possible way to intervene in crisis before they produce violence. And red flag laws need investment of hundreds of millions of dollars for them as an incentive but also to implement them and at the same time we can have a variety of other crisis intervention mode that help save lives,” Blumenthal said.
There’s also been issues over efforts to modify law to close “boyfriend loophole.” Under current law, unmarried partners who commit domestic violence are not barred from purchasing a firearm, though spouses who perpetrate domestic violence are.
Negotiators are struggling with how to appropriately define a “boyfriend” or partner in this language to include those who are unmarried.
Democrats earlier Wednesday sought to downplay Cornyn’s concern about the two outstanding issues.
Democratic negotiator Sen. Chris Coons, D-DE, chalked both the boyfriend loophole issue and the red-flag law snag up to “modest negotiation challenges,” noting that issues always arise when frameworks are being turned to legislative bill text.
“All we have to do is write text that is true to the framework,” Murphy said. “You know, we all made a commitment to each other that we were supportive of the framework and then we’re going to write that into law. I have continued confidence that we can write that framework into text and we can have that for our colleagues next week.”
While negotiators continue to work on legislative text, there is a growing contingent of Republicans who have signaled willingness to supportive the framework.
Republican Leader Mitch McConnell on Tuesday said he is “comfortable” with the bipartisan gun safety reform framework and will be “supportive” of the bill “if the legislation ends up reflecting what the framework indicates.”
“My view of the framework if it leads to a piece of legislation I intend to support it I think it is progress for the country and I think the bipartisan group has done the best they can to get total support and the background check enhancement for that age group I think is a step in the right direction,” McConnell said.
And other members in his conference are also signaling willingness to support the proposal.
“I just need to see the text…want to see the details. The framework I think looks good, but it’s going to be what the details are,” said Sen. Shelley Moore Capito, R-WV, on Tuesday.
Getting text to members before the weekend will be key, Cornyn said. And he’s still hopeful it can be done.
“We need to tie a nice thick ribbon around everything,” Cornyn told reporters. “Because we have to have an end to this to write the text in order to be able to share it with colleagues and provide it to the majority leader to put it on the floor.”
(WASHINGTON) — The House Jan. 6 select committee on Wednesday released video footage of GOP Rep. Barry Loudermilk leading constituents on a tour around the Capitol complex on Jan. 5 — that included a nearby office building but not the Capitol itself — and it claimed that one of the participants marched to the Capitol the next day and made “detailed” threats against members of Congress.
The committee’s move comes after Capitol Police Chief Tom Manger said in a letter the tour was not suspicious, although the committee said the footage raises questions because it appears to show several participants taking photos of the stairways and tunnel systems connecting the Capitol to members’ office buildings.
“Based on our review of surveillance video, social media activity, and witness accounts, we understand you led a tour group through parts of the Capitol complex on January 5, 2021. That group stayed for several hours, despite the complex being closed to the public on that day,” Chairman Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., wrote.
“Surveillance footage shows a tour of approximately ten individuals led by you to areas in the Rayburn, Longworth, and Cannon House Office Buildings, as well as the entrances to tunnels leading to the U.S. Capitol,” he continued. “Individuals on the tour photographed and recorded areas of the complex not typically of interest to tourists, including hallways, staircases, and security checkpoints.”
At the same time, the letter from the committee does not suggest that anyone on the tour entered the Capitol that day or has been charged with wrongdoing.
Loudermilk heatedly denied any wrongdoing in a statement he tweeted soon after, accusing the committee of a “smear campaign” and claiming “no one” in his Jan. 5 tour group has been “criminally charged” in relation to Jan. 6.
[1/5] The Capitol Police already put this false accusation to bed, yet the Committee is undermining the Capitol Police and doubling down on their smear campaign, releasing so-called evidence of a tour of the House Office Buildings, which I have already publicly addressed. https://t.co/yqIpQ6jSG9
— Rep. Barry Loudermilk (@RepLoudermilk) June 15, 2022
In his letter made public Tuesday, Manger told the top Republican on the House Administration Committee that there was “no evidence” that Loudermilk gave “reconnaissance” tours before the Jan. 6 attack.
The House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol had requested information from Loudermilk, a Georgia Republican, suggesting in a May letter that he may be linked to a tour through parts of the Capitol on the day before the attack.
Manger told Rep. Rodney Davis, an Illinois Republican, that no such tours were conducted and that Loudermilk was giving a tour to constituents.
“As I’ve said since the Jan. 6 Committee made their baseless accusation about me to the media, I never gave a tour of the Capitol on Jan 5, 2021 and a small group visiting their congressman is in no way a suspicious activity,” Loudermilk said in a tweet Tuesday. “Now the Capitol Police have confirmed this fact.”
Rep. Mickie Sherill, a New Jersey Democrat, alleged in a January 2021 letter that she witnessed tours being conducted the day before Jan. 6.
“The tours being conducted on Tuesday, January 5, were a noticeable and concerning departure from the procedures in place in March of 2020 that limited the number of visitors to the Capitol,” Sherill wrote. “These tours were so concerning they were reported to the Sargent (sic) at Arms on January 5.”
Manger’s letter says that the group of 15 people entered the Rayburn House Office building and was met by a Loudermilk staffer and then went to the congressman’s office and then to the Cannon House Office Building basement.
“At no time did the group appear in any tunnels that would have led them to the U.S. Capitol. In addition, the tunnels leading to the U.S. Capitol were posted with USCP officers and admittance to the U.S. Capitol without a Member of Congress was not permitted on January 5, 2021,” the letter said.
Manger says officers are trained to see anything suspicious and what individuals did on Loudermilk’s tour was not.
“There is no evidence that Representative Loudermilk entered the U.S. Capitol with this group on January 5, 2021,” he writes. “We train our officers on being alert for people conducting surveillance or reconnaissance, and we do not consider any of the activities we observed as suspicious.”
